Illegal, immoral acts made just

by · 55 comments

March 22, 2011
Denver, Colorado, USA

Have you ever seen the devastation from a BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missile? It’s beyond description. Standing in the impact area, it’s as if nothing has ever existed there before.

It’s naive to think that something with so much destructive power is unlikely to cause ‘collateral damage.’ I can only imagine the consequences of 159 and counting, the amount of force that has been unleashed in Libya as yet by western governments.

This morning, US Defense Secretary Robert Gates shrugged off any implication that military strikes are responsible for significant civilian casualties in Libya… while at the same time playing down America’s role and the timeline for continued action.

This is insane. You are either at war, or you are not. Warfare requires clearly defined objectives, competent generals, and well-resourced fighting forces… it cannot be waged with half-measures and stammering equivocation.

Yet, here we are again, watching bureaucrats tap dance in front of voters, playing down the long-term ramifications of engagement and outright rejecting the idea of regime change as an intended objective.

They feel 100% justified in their decision to wage a half war without getting their hands dirty, rejecting any consequences to civilians, all under the auspices of protecting civilians… but only Libyan civilians.

Much praise has been heaped on Barack Obama, Nicolas Sarkozy, and the UN Security Council for their ‘political courage,’ taking action in the face of popular backlash to defend Libyans.

“Political courage” is an oxymoron. Everything these people do is for their professional gain, to be reelected, and the fallout of these decisions costs lives and economic misfortune. The cost of the munitions alone so far is over a quarter billion dollars, let alone the human cost.

Barack Obama himself said in 2002, “What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks… to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income — to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.”

Sounds great. Spoken like a true Nobel Laureate.

The intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy involved is phenomenal.  The UN Security Council resolution (#1973) which ‘authorized’ this invasion, expresses condemnation for Qadaffi’s deleterious actions against his own people…

… nevermind that the exact same thing is happening in Bahrain (which produces only 10% of Libya’s oil) where the US Navy’s 5th Fleet is headquartered with front row seats to the show;

… nevermind that governments have hardly uttered a word about the situation in Bahrain or Saudi Arabia;

… nevermind that the western world has proven itself incompetent at regime change after the occupations of both Iraq and Afghanistan;

… nevermind that 10-years of warfare have worn out the spirit and morale of fighting forces to the point that they are twisted into taking trophy photos of dead civilians like a 16-point buck;

… nevermind that you can’t just step in, bomb some targets, step out, and expect a peaceful, stable, democratic, pro-Western society to materialize out of thin air;

… nevermind that the coalition forces lack the moral authority to cherry pick which countries to invade and which civilian populations to ignore.

When they lack moral authority, they simply create it out of thin air. Politicians and bureaucrats equate morality with legality. If something is legal, it must be just… and if it’s not legal, they’ll pass a law or resolution making it legal… and hence just.

This is the way they operate– using regulatory technicalities to wrap themselves in a blanket of righteousness in order to execute their agenda. As Tacitus said, “the more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.”

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2011-03-22
  • The Watchdog

    Simon, you’ve nailed it again. Clear, concise, cogent analysis here at Sovereign Man that you won’t find ANYWHERE in the mainstream media. Keep up the good work.

  • Cal

    This is one of your best missives yet Simon–dead on correct and promptly shared on FB.

  • Daniela

    Well done, thank you.

  • J-

    Simon, did you read the article in the Financial Times today that said one of the main reasons that Qadaffi has been able to hold onto control is because of his large gold reserve (5-6 billion dollars worth if I recall correctly) that he has stashed inside his own borders? They made a point to mention the power of gold being that it can’t be manipulated or undermined by any government. Thought the whole article was very interesting…

  • http://twitter.com/MichaelPorfirio Michael Mason

    “The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.”

    Such a great quote. I believe when people look back on the Fall of America, they will trace it to the smoking ban. That was the beginning. They have been piling on the laws since.

    - MPM

  • Jana

    Hi Simon, I am in Boulder CO if you want to hear about a $10 Bill investment op involving evolutionary/peace products.

    The Machiavellian intelligence that enabled humans to dominate life on earth may ultimately be our downfall. The greatest underlying existential risk of global catastrophic this century lies in the competitive dominance behavior of human male primates using “narrow intelligence” to pursue what male hunter-warriors are biologically “designed” to do, i.e. wage war. If we cannot self-reflect on our motivations, emotions and take on multiple perspectives, especially that of “Other,” we remain trapped in the automated ID of biological evolution. Through the inability to read or understand our own minds we cannot perceive our own zombie status. This “mind-blindness” or autistic intelligence, is a failure of the cognitive capacity of perspective-taking to acquire a theory of mind. In the automaton, zombie, or Machiavellian state our frequency is off, whereby the quickness, bit-switching, differentiation and computation of consciousness is set to a “dehumanizing” mode. War and aggression undermine that which is “human” in the hominid.

  • Nlifeus

    I suspect there are very specific objectives to this mission.

    Just because the Administration hasn’t blabbed it out to the world, and especially to you, doesn’t mean much except shhhhh..it’s a secret.

    Yeah people are going to die. People that are for the most part enablers of the dictator. ANd sure there will be some ‘innocents’ lost in the battle.

    This all could have been avoided if Ronald Raygun had doen HIS job when Lybia knocked a commercial jet out of the skies over Scotland.

    So shutup & enjoy the ride to 3rd world status.

    • Mayotom

      Would you say the same about when the US kocked an Iranian commercial jet out of the Sky.

      • Nlifeus

        Absolutely! No defending any of these terrorist actions.

        Killing innocents is as horrible as you can get.

  • wsm

    So you are in favor of the of the previous regime continuing its rule?

  • Gibby

    Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Oh man, Mike, you’re a stitch. You’ve traced the oppression by the US to the smoking ban? Ya’ mean it wasn’t the previous 200 years of state-sponsored murder and slaughter by anybody or anything that got in the way of profit? Glad you cleared that up, genius.

  • John232

    To all who are against western intervention, watch this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f59f2ZSipBU&

    This is what Gaddafi did to one innocent family. If the West didn’t intervene, the rebels would’ve lost by now. Once that happened, think about what Gaddafi would do to his people…Rwanda would like a picnic.

    It makes me sick that there are people who thinks we should just let Gaddafi massacre everyone because:

    …it’s also happening in Bahrain

    …US will steal the oil afterward (tin foil hats)

    …it’s none of our business (same excuse used in Rwanda)

  • BorisV

    I suspect that poor civilians we are going to defend are those very guys who drive pickup trucks with mounted anti-aircraft guns, who emptied army’s depots off all PRGs and such, and who has unknown to us ideas what to do with Libya after we helped ‘em to win.

  • Gex

    Excellent post. A 1000 pound bomb like the tomahawk will kill all human beings instantly within 150 feet of it’s impact,knock down most houses with 150 feet, and leave a 30 foot crater. Shrapnel will kill a certain percentage of people within 2000 feet. What are the chances of dozens or more likely hundreds of civilians in Tripoli and other areas being within 2000 feet of targeted city air defense radars? %100. What are the chances of the US even understanding a tribal civil war? Zero.
    The casual dismissal of human life by those politicians is easily worthy of Ted Bundy. Does any one even know if a majority of Libyans are for or against Qaddafi? How many Americans know that Libya is a tribal society made up of 3 tribal regions and that the rebels are mostly from one tribe and the regime another? If the US and European politicians claim to want to stop Qaddafi, why did they sell him tanks,helicopters and bombs over the past decade even after his agents blew up 2 civilian jetliners??? (hint-he payed out billions in various bribes and agreed to go along with US directives.)Why did the US still launch a massively deadly attack even after Qaddafi obeyed Obama’s ultimatum and stopped his attack on Benghazi?Why did the US attack Libya but not the US supplicant Yemen which has killed at least 40 civilians, especially when reports so far show only around the same number Libyan civil war deaths?If the US can bomb people at will without even bothering to have a fake war vote, than Obama’s legal assertion that he can summarily kill Americans anywhere in the world with UAV’s when he wants to is much closer to being more than an assertion.

  • Carlos

    Hello all,

    I don’t mean to throw a wrench into the usual American bashing but…well…I feel I must.

    Now bear in mind that I can’t wait to get out of the U.S. myself. Absolutely. The country is sliding toward totalitarianism and I for one don’t want to be here when the next terrorist attack causes whatever rights and freedoms are left in this country to fly out the door but…

    Simon I think you are going a bit overboard in what you say…

    “nevermind that 10-years of warfare have worn out the spirit and morale of fighting forces to the point that they are twisted into taking trophy photos of dead civilians like a 16-point buck;”

    Hmm…that’s like saying that “10 years of Republicans (or Democrates take your pick) have worn out the spirit and morale of Americans to the point that they are twisted into going into McDonald’s restaurants and shooting people (put in whatever bad thing you want as the last part of this sentnece”"

    You lump cause and effect rolled into one and assume that the reason those soldiers took those photos was because of a worn out spirit and morale.

    May I suggest that the reason those soldiers took those photos is because…well…because those particular soldiers had no spirit and their morals were perverse?

    Certainly what happens overall affects the military overall but I think you go overboard in assuming that if the spirit and morale was at an all time high that such things would never happen.

    Bad things happen. Bad people do bad things. No matter what the overall situation is with our spirit and morale.

    As for your apparent view that we should either be in a real war, all out, or none at all…I can’t think of one war that was all out as you seem to describe. We could have dropped more than two atomic bombs in Japan. We could have firebombed every single German city in WWII like we did Dresden. And so forth.

    Every war is a measured response to a perceived aggressor or injustice. Please note I said measured.

    You would apparently have us do nothing at all or get all out involved both of which would be a lose/lose for everyone involved.

    In this particular case don’t you think it is indeed better to get surgically involved to help limit civilian deaths than to do nothing at all and just sit and watch the violence on CNN?

    I see a danger in this involvement for sure. That the UN will become more and more inclined to police the world.

    Speaking of which…it is the UN involved this time overall. It is not just the US so let’s give credit where credit is due. If the big bad Satan is at it again so are a number of other countries like France and Britain. We need to give proper credit and bash them all if we are going to bash anyone at all.

    Carlos

    • Gil

      I believe the U.S. only had two atomic bombs and were months away from making another.

    • Anon

      “In this particular case don’t you think it is indeed better to get surgically involved to help limit civilian deaths than to do nothing at all and just sit and watch the violence on CNN?”

      You answered your own question earlier. Bad things happen. Bad people do bad things.

      The United States of America cannot serve as the world’s police force. Once, just once before I die, I would like to see the UN pull off a major military action like this without US involvement.

  • TheHuron1

    So, I guess Nlifeus and WSM won’t be too upset when, say, China begins lobbing missiles at southern California in an effort to stop the bloodshed between the state-backed communicrats and the rest of us?

    • http://www.capitalistexploits.com/ Chris

      The US could deal a decisive blow to China without any weapons. They just close down Wallmart.

  • Mayotom

    so very true Simon, its a shame that this war mongering has been allowed to continue for so long. All recent wars have been about money(for the large corporations who sponsor the political elite)

  • Asdf

    Just to let you know, that each missile cost $740,000 EACH to make! The government has 3,500 stockpiled ($2.6 Billion cost), and the missile costs $11,210,000,000 to develop.

    This amount of money spent on this missile project, would provide enough money to feed and clothe the entire united States population 10 milion, for 3 full years, including all homeless.

    Another good question to ask would be: Who has the missile contract? and who gets this money?

  • doncheech

    War number 3… maybe we should give vietnam another go,and then iran,syria,north korea, venezuala,ect.

  • MXC

    I’m shocked by the attitude displayed by most here, which appears either fully self-centric, or at best, US-centric. What about addressing the question of what we *humans* should do in the face of such naked and cold aggression against those who simply stood up to tyranny – a tyranny, by the way, much, much worse than that suffered by any of us who (formerly?) identified with aims and ideals of this blog.
    I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but I cannot understand how you simply watch thousands and thousands of men, women, and children get massacred at the hands of a psychotic tyrant, whose only goal is to perpetuate his domination over people and possessions he has taken by force and terror, and just wash your hands of it because “it’s non of our business” or “the other guys are doing the same thing” or on and on.
    No, it’s not the responsibility of the US to police the world, even in extreme cases like this, but until we as inhabitants of this planet can stand up in *obvious* cases, as has been demonstrated by the brutal repression of the people of Libya, and state, by force, if necessary, that this behavior simply *will not stand*, there is no hope, no glimmer that our species is even deserving of survival. And at least, in this case, with all its faults and cracks, at least some semblance of world community has stood up and said “this will not stand”.
    If you can’t see that, if this is just an opportunity to tar and feather one particular government, if you can write an entire blog entry about this topic and never once mention the horror and suffering of the Libyan people for the past 40+ years (particularly in the past 40 days), I am in the wrong group.
    Very, very disappointing…

    • Gex

      Considering the US and Europe sold the weapons to Qaddafi, and has been slaughtering Civilians by the thousands every year for the past 10 years in Afghanistan and 20 years in Iraq, and just dropped over 160 massive bombs in Tripoli and other cities, how is it you think that the US won’t kill more civilians than Qaddafi?

      Why do you claim the US bombing of Libya was necessary after Qaddafi agreed to Obama’s demand to not attack Benghazi?

      Why is your opinion on this more important than those Libyan rebel protesters who have demanded the US stay out?

      Link to a single piece of evidence that Qaddafi has killed thousands of men,women and children in this tribal civil war instead of the less than 200 combatants reported or admit your spreading propaganda.

    • http://www.windowstorussia.com Kyle and Svet

      Because Qaddafi did not kill thousands and thousands of people…

      “I cannot understand how you simply watch thousands and thousands of men, women, and children get massacred at the hands of a psychotic tyrant,”

      That is what the Western press has spoon fed you for a month. In fact at one point we were told that 10,000 had possibly been killed by Qaddafi. Then they back pedaled and lowered it to around a thousand…

      Oh maybe you mean, We are now killing thousands and thousands of men, women, and children by all of our missiles. But I forgot that is collateral damage and they don’t count…

      “tar and feather” you sound like a troll to me…

      Very, very disappointing…

      Kyle

    • http://profiles.google.com/ase1972 Anthony Evangelista

      Your assuming all the reports of this so called massacre’s are accurate, your also ignoring all the other massacres that have occurred in other countries we choose to ignore. Then had to that all the massacres the US has condoned, facilitated and or participated in. I ask you what makes this one so different??

    • Starbuck

      If you are so passionate about your beliefs, why don’t YOU go to Libya and join the rebels? Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is, instead of insisting other people risk their lives to make you feel good about yourself.

    • Andrew

      You complain about tyranny, and yet we see men around the world being ruled by those who hang onto their power by all means, and pass it down to their children. Look at Nth Korea. For that matter, look at England. Surely the Royal Families of the world, as nice as they may be at the moment, should also be removed. Shouldn’t all men of the world be free?

  • Gil

    Of course there’s alway going to be “collateral damage” – that’s war. It’s more of a question of whether the U.S. should be involved whatsoever. If you’re implying the U.S. military can’t use force if there’s going to be “collateral damage” then you’re saying the U.S. military can’t doing do anything, period. To say the U.S. must wait for the enemy to come out in the open such that there be no “collateral damage” is to ask the impossible.

  • Cal

    To John232, Nlifeus, and Carlos, and anyone who justifies the US/UN action in Libya or anywhere:

    Wake up and smell the money! Or, better yet, follow the money trail. War is nothing but moneymaker for all governments who engage in it, the corporations with government contracts that supply the tools for it, and the UN is just a cover for both entities. Gaddafi has been in power for over 40 years–did you ever wonder why? The “specific objective”, that is so secret, Nlifeus, is translated into M-O-N-E-Y and P-O-W-E-R.

    The US government has been responsible for supporting many military dictatorships over the last century, and standing by while budding and real democratic governments were toppled–playing both sides–whatever works, as long as either situation supports or doesn’t interfere with plans to keep the money and oil flowing. When it does, then the empire strikes.

    John232, this is not about saving innocent civilians–if it were, why is it that “innocent civilians” are “helped” as long as there is some sort of asset to be gained? (Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya all have natural resources and assets that many governments and corporations covet, and as long as the country’s leader plays the game, via the CIA, they stay in power (read about how it’s done in John Perkin’s “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, and “Secret History of the American Empire.”) If they don’t play along, they get the boot (think back to Noriega of Panama–he was taken out under the claim of drug trafficking and money laundering, but the Panama canal is a pretty good resource to control also. Even Wikipedia tells how the US government supported his military dictatorship in the beginning, and how he dutifully did his job for the CIA, supplying Nicaraguan guerrillas with weapons to cause regional troubles and undermine other leaders not in the pocket of the CIA. Many other country leaders who cause problems have been taken out with CIA led coups, or many of them just have unfortunate “accidents”, if they don’t go along with the plan.

    As a dictator, Noriega was responsible for smuggling human beings and drugs (and made great bank), and as dictators so often do, killed hundreds of Panamanian civilians. But that didn’t cause his ousting–it was only when the US government decided it wanted to control the Panama Canal, that Noriega’s little “side operations” became an issue. Shortly after, “Operation Just Cause” was put into play and (according to Wikipedia) was to be “a surgical maneuver, (but) the action led to civilian deaths whose estimated numbers range from 400 to 4,000 during the two weeks of armed activities in the largest United States military operation since the end of the Vietnam War. It also “served to reinforce United States authority over the region right at the end of the Cold War, as well as use Panama as practice field for weapons and strategies that would shortly after be used in the Gulf War.”

    Rwanda’s natural resources are basically coffee and tea–why do you think the genocide that killed over ONE MILLION people wasn’t stopped by the US, the UN or anyone? Could it be because there was nothing to gain?

    It makes ME sick when people really believe war is something done in the name of anything even remotely good. That is such misguided patriotism, and so very sad that one can even fathom to call war “patriotism.” Human lives are lost on both sides, and it is disgustingly called “collateral damage.” How did our world get to the point that collateral damage of any sort is okay? War is always waged only for gain of money and power, on behalf of the few (who use and get the rest of us killed to wage it), and nothing more these days–or for that matter, in all of history. There is nothing noble or right about war, EVER. Please, take off your Polly Anna rose-colored glasses, and find out the real history of our world. Follow the money trail–it goes back several hundreds of years–at least in written history, and most likely, even before that. And, word to the wise: don’t just read the victor’s history books or take them as a gospel truth accounting–as always, there are always two sides to the story, but I wonder how many historians ever told the whole truth? (That question is only rhetorical, as I know the answer is zero.) If you choose to do that, only then will you be able to see the big picture of what game is really being played on this planet.

    P.S. Just to be clear and transparent: I am a US citizen–born and raised, and a veteran. It pains me to have to admit this about the country I love and hope, someday, will again be the country it was designed to be–the land of the free, the land of opportunity and prosperity for the down-trodden and oppressed, and the land that sets an example of peace. Let’s all get up off our knees and demand that there be NO MORE WAR!

    • Carlos

      Hi Cal. Just one comment on something you said if I might.

      “It makes ME sick when people really believe war is something done in the name of anything even remotely good.”

      If all war is bad then so are all acts between two individuals which result in some level of violence.

      You cannot separate the violence that occurs between nation states from the violence that occurs between individuals.

      If you can, pray tell the logic of such a distinction. I see none.

      If I attempt to enter your house and rape your wife and rob you are you likewise wrong for attempting to stop me? If need be at the point of a gun, knife, or even your fists?

      As much as we might delude ourselves into thinking that all human beings will listen to reason if we reason with them enough…the fact of the matter is that we must use means to defend our loves one’s and our property that often results in violence.

      The question is not whether war is evil. It isn’t. War is a part of the human condition in that we live among fellow members of the human race that are not all loving, gracious, and kind.

      War is to be avoided if at all possible but it is inevitable that wars will happen as surely as it is inevitable that there will be another murder in the city I live in, that another punk will beat up on some defenseless person, that another man will beat his wife, or that someone else will offend another.

      We can no more remove the possibility of war than we can remove selfishness, pride, inconsideration, and rudeness from the next punk that might pick on us.

      Carlos

      • Cal

        Sorry Carlos, your analogy is not even close to making sense. . .

        War is definitely not part of the human condition–it is waged and made up by tyrants and wealthy bullies at the top, who play a game of chess with our lives, and who concurrently, also live in fear of losing their kingdom of money and power. You really need to get to the big picture–try this article for example: http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03292011.html.

        As to your comment: “If all war is bad then so are all acts between two individuals which result in some level of violence.”–Yes(!), obviously, violence of every sort is bad–from world war violence to two individuals. I don’t really understand the point you are trying to make. It seems you are trying to justify why it exists, and I am telling you how it exists, and how wrong it is. Please read about Gandhi and Martin Luther King and how they each changed the world starting in their own lives and then progressing out to affect millions of other people.

        War can be removed, and someday, it will be a thing of the past.

  • http://www.borneoholidays.net Alan

    You’re getting more flack than usual for this one… I would defend you but I’m STILL smarting over you censoring my post about Borneo.

    Yeah I’m looking at you, Mr I wanna keep all my link-juice to myself Censorship Person.

    I mean sheesh.

  • Domlanic

    Come on, Simon! Are you suggesting the world should stand by and watch another Rwanda? You avoid admitting there is a UN mandate for the action and it is NOT only the USA participating.
    What, then is your proposal for dealing with madmen like Gaddafi?? Just look the other way? Recall also it was your PamAm flight he personally had destroyed over Lockerbie.. and the innocent policewoman shot by a ‘diplomat’ from his London ‘embassy’

    • Stemthetide

      There is no comparison to Rwanda. The UN has very narrow grounds to interfere with internal politics of a country. The situation in Libya meets none of them.

      You are using the wrong analagy. If the citizens of, say Vermont, were being supplied with arms from Canada; had Russian and British Special Services co-ordinating their activities; declared the President must go; launched an attack on neighbouring states (seizing natural resources) along the way to Washington DC; are you telling me that the US government would stand back and let it happen?
      Would the US government tolerate a no fly zone set up by the UN?

      The answer is no to both questions. You can take virtually any other country and apply the same analogy. Quebec in Canada, Brittany in France, Calabria in Italy, Wales in the UK, etc. The only difference is that some are big enough, like the US, Russia and China to defend themselves. The Libyas and Yugoslavia are/were not.

  • Domlanic

    Apologies, I got a little hot under the collar in my previous comment; you did mention UN security council’s resolution and I missed that in my haste. Asking what is your proposal is still valid, though. America can ill afford the military expenditure, let alone potential casualties, that I can’t disagree with.
    As for Bahrain, Hillary Clinton has expressed strong disapproval and no doubt pressure is being applied diplomatically but the situation there has not got to the state it has in Libya… yet. They don’t have a madman in charge, fortunately.

  • Kevinhofsas

    I especially liked your discourse this morning, Boliveous Sagieous, specifically because it exalts and defends our GOD given conscious, from which all moral authority springs.

    The wisest man who lived before Christ, King Solomon, filled volumes about the wicked, and how to discern them. The book is called Proverbs, and most every Bible has one. I believe it is also within the holy and sacred Hebrew text.

    To refer to just one illustration that agrees with and reinforces with your editorial, I’ll leave this: Proverbs 17:15; “He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.”

    It behooves us who have earthly fathers to aspire to Our heavenly Father’s advice, which he has put in the book of Proverbs. There are 20 references within it regarding wickedness.

    We are eternal creatures—though the natural mind rejects this truth.

    Concerning God and our Savior, the LORD Jesus Christ,

    “ . . . his praise shall always increase . . .”

    K H
    Denver, Colorado

  • Fred

    Its fun for our betters in Washington to kick some little backwater coutries ass every now and again, makes them feel important. We just need to be careful though, one day we might punch a country that can punch back.

  • John

    Simon, as usual you nailed it. Exactly what i think, thank you!

  • Anonymous

    As much sympathy as I feel for the plight of the Libyans America used to be a nation which adhered to the rule of law and the American Constitution DOES NOT give the president any power to declare war – what makes it even more problematic is that what Gaddafi is doing in Libya is being perpetrated by the Saudis on their own people – it smells like oil – what do you think?

    • Dogzzz

      The Saudis are not using tanks, mobile rocket launchers, missiles, jets and helicopter gunships against their own people and promising to slaughter entire cities without mercy.

  • Carlos

    Incidentally for those of you here that seem inclined to bash the U.S. no matter what it does and to look on this latest action as a U.S. thing…it may interest you to know that the following countries are participating in the Libya operation:

    Belgium
    Canada
    Denmark
    France
    Greece
    Italy
    Netherlands
    Norway
    Qatar
    Romania
    Spain
    Turkey
    United Kingdom

    That’s in addition to the U.S. involvement!

    All of the above countries are supplying armed forces to this operation.

    I think many of you are giving the U.S. too much credit in this operation in that so many others are on the same page with respect to acting in the interests of the Libyan people to help avoid loss of life.

    It would be naive to believe that such a motive is first and foremost in the minds of all but just as the local soup kitchen here makes money from feeding the homeless but where the homeless are still fed, so likewise, whatever the motive of these nations ultimately is, Libyan lives are being saved.

    I’ve said it before and I will say it again…I am not a rabid pro-American. Not at all. But I am for being fair and for not bashing a country like the U.S. just because it is fashionable to do so or is in line with how others on this blog might feel.

    Carlos

    Source for the list of countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_no-fly_zone (I recognize Wikipedia to less than a stellar source of accurate facts but I am sure what is said on that page can be supported by other sources more reliable still).

    • Gex

      Carlos, you haven’t explained how making a small war into a huge war is going to save lives. The US started out claiming this war would take ‘days not weeks’ and that they were acting only to prevent the rebels from being massacred and would go no further. Is any one reading this with two brain cells to rub together surprised that Obama just announced that Qaddafi must go? The US was willing to directly kill a minimum of 7500 Iraqi civilians as ‘collateral damage’ during the 2003 invasion, how many Libyans do you think the US will kill now? I’ll bet they are past 1000 already.

      Why did is the US invading oil rich Libya but not Qatar? Because a. Qaddafi is more politically isolated and b. the US see’s an opportunity to grab more direct control of the oil without having to trade expensive arms to Qaddafi like they did for the past 10 years.

      Note to US officials: can you please wait at least a week before exposing yourself as liars about earlier statements? Waiting at least a week before expanding ‘a few days long operation,we promise’ into an indefinite length war, would help we Americans pretend we really aren’t just dumb peasants with zero say on when our government gets us involved in wars.

      We need a protest to demand better lies from the government.

      • Carlosbcg

        Again I am not saying the U.S. is or will do everything right. Not at all.

        Only that in this case I think we need to be fair in not unduly bashing the U.S. for taking part in this Libya action because of it’s mistakes of the past including that there were no WMD’s actually in Iraq (which I attribute to faulty intelligence and not to some speculative conspiracy about how the U.S. was after the oil and needed an excuse, lied intentionally, and so forth).

        One Iraq does not for a Libya make.

        Admittedly it should cause us to be wary of U.S. intelligence but seeing the end from the beginning in Iraq from hindsight does not give us proof positive that the U.S. will repeat the same mistakes in Libya.

        On it’s own merits I personally think the U.S. involvement in the Libya action will save lives and that is good enough by me for now though I am concerned that the U.N. will now start policing the world and justifying involvement in other places to save lives.

        Saving lives only goes so far. At some point the world must back offr and let a country deal with it’s own mess.

        So I do hope the U.S. does not get involved in regime change or in attempts to forceably remove Ghaddifi.

        Carlos

    • http://profiles.google.com/graceofgod74 patricia hesketh

      you forgot Israel in your list of participation, because when the Cia got al quieda to infiltrate Libya, Israel’s reaction was to defend Qaddafi, and now the war on israel begins…

  • Dan

    My gut reaction to this war, was that it provided useful cover for our basic support of the crackdown of protestors in Bahrein and Saudi Arabia. The EU, like the USA has an interest in the Gulf oil, and the American hold on the Persian Gulf is as much about supporting Europe as American interests. Our American and European leaders are willing to take some flack taking out Khadaffi, and it takes the focus off of our behind the scenes approval of the brutal suppression of protesters in the oil rich Arabian Peninsula. It wasn’t long ago that Khadaffi was accepted as one who came in from the cold. As much as we hated to do it, he had to be sacrificed so that no one would worry about the oppressed Shia in Bahrein and Saudi Arabia. Life goes on and the oil flows.

  • Anonymous

    We have a higher percentage of our population in prison than Libya.

    Our militarized police force has killed hundreds of innocent people in botched no knock warrant raids.

    Our President has now claimed that the government can lock up a person indefinitely even if that person is found innocent in a trial.

    Our government has imposed an exit tax like those used by Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia to discourage expatriation.

    A recording was released yesterday of an SEIU leader, Steve Lerner, plotting with Communist and Socialist groups to destroy the US economy with a major event planned for May 2011. Steve Lerner has visited Obama in the White House and the current SEIU President speaks with Obama almost daily. The group Organizing for America is part of this. That group was originally Organizing for Obama.

    Our President wants a “kill switch” for the internet in the US to be used in an emergency. He will get to decide what defines an emergency.

    Our President has stopped oil drilling in the gulf for the US putting thousands out of work but wants to give billions in aid to Brazil to drill off-shore and promised to buy their oil. By an uncanny coincidence Obama’s buddy, Nazi collaborator, architect of the Left, and all around scary guy George Soros just happened to have invested $800 million in Petrobas (the Brazilian oil co) last year.

    I’m far more concerned about the evil being perpetrated here in the US by the Government than I am what is happening to the people in Libya, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, or anywhere else. Islam is supposed to be the religion of peace. Let those peaceful Muslim countries (and the Tooth Fairy) that are by Libya help their neighbors. Let France, who gets much of their oil from Libya help out for their economic interest. Keep America out of it. Time for us to shift or focus to the real threat to American freedom, our own government and the communist/socialists here, and stop being distracted by playing empire builder and world policeman.

    • bullmoose

      Give me a break. There is no communist/socialist plot. The conservatives are the ones who started being “empire builders and world policemen” ten years ago. Anything the current president has done was done by the last president. It doesn’t matter which party is in power. They are both pursuing the same ruinous policies. Trying to place the blame on one party or the other is simply misguided and driven by your own particular political ideology.

  • hjltare

    Simon, have you seen this documentary titled America: Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo?

    I just finished watching it, and thought it would be interesting for the Sovereign man community. Highly recommended.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173#

    • Kevinhofsas

      hjltare,
      Freedom to Fascism is good and educational. Now watch AGENDA. It’s another documentary. Find it at agendadocumentary.com.

      It’s just what the doctor ordered to push people off the fence.

      Oh–and it exposes why America is on the ropes, in dire straits and has lost its way.

      Actually, that’s an oversimplification, but the rest of the story really doesn’t fit here.

      KH

  • Anonymous

    “Our President has now claimed that the government can lock up a person indefinitely even if that person is found innocent in a trial.”

    I certainly hope you people understand the REAL ramifications of this act.
    Let’s say the drones in the U.S. of Israel wake up and smell the (stench from DC), coffee. They begin sitting in as jurors during persecution…(oops, I meant prosecution), of people on trial for defending themselves and their loved ones/property from the minions, (police/military), of the “Renfield Class and their T. Jew owners. Realizing that they, (the jurors), are being lied to and not told the facts…..they find a defendand not guilty or justifiable homicide…..etc etc..
    The Renfield Class now has the power to basically tell you to f**k off, snatch this person up and imprison him anyway. You DO understand that the owned judicial branch has the power to withhold facts and evidence from the jury don’t you?

    Ask any academic sent to prison for trying to expose the holocaust lie. it happens all….the…..time.

    Ask any seated head of state the U.S. of Israel has murdered or sent to prison for not “playing ball” and selling out their people and natural resources to Western corporations.

    You never hear the extenuating circumstances. On the OTHER hand, if you’re well connected, they call justice as THEY see it;

    Roman Polanski
    Drugged, sodomized and raped a 13 year old child and to this day, (he WAS convicted in absentia), has NEVER served a day in prison.

    Bill Surkis
    Former head of the canadian B’nai B’rith caught with +/- 9 hours of child porn on his “hard” drive…sentence? 45 DAYS served on weekends….NO posting on pedophile watch lists..

  • S.D.Bob Plisken

    Hey America!!! Hows it going these days? I can see how this is done!! Vietnam was unjustified!! Korea War was unjustified!! General Douglas MaCarthur told President Kennedy not to go to Vietnam! We did anyway! Not at the expence of America but at the expenses of these filthy dirty politicians and Rothchild loving politicians in Washington DC!!! Real Americans should be ready to pack up your bags and be leaving the country or head for the mountains and have nothing to do with modern-day society anymore!! If youre an American, time to pack your bags and leave!

    S.D.Bob Plisken
    pliskens10@yahoo.com

  • American

    So how do you people feel about “change” Now? Not quite what you expected? Thanks go to hollywood for make a “nothing” into the grand poo ba potentate, and convincing the dumbed down masses to the lie. What a show, 2012 can’t come fast enough……….

  • Anonymous

    I thought this was just to be about a no fly zone. Now we are supplying close air support to people we don’t know anything about in a war we have no business or interest in. As far as I am concerned, we have two groups of thugs. Let them fight it out. Also I thought there was a law about assacinating foreign leaders, Mrs. Clinton.

  • ffs

    Congressional approval required. Anything else is treason.

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