Bewildered, the TSA agent held my 10-ounce silver bar up to the light as if it could possibly be see-through.
Apparently he had never seen such a thing before and thought that it might possess magical powers. Or perhaps that I might.
“Why are you traveling with this?”
Simultaneously delighted and angered, the immediate reactions that popped into my head ranged from “none of your damn business,” to launching into my sound money diatribe… just for effect, I carry around a $10 trillion Zimbabwe note and ask if they think it is more valuable than my silver.
In this case I simply replied, “… well you’ve obviously never been to Africa.”
Apparently my cryptic response shamed him into moving on. Or maybe it has the heavyset woman with the thick New Yawk accent behind me who vocalized her dissatisfaction. In either case, I wasn’t concerned. I know the regulation.
Moving precious metals overseas is one of the most commonly misunderstimated (ibid, Bush) subtopics of sound money wealth accumulation. After all, stockpiling gold and silver won’t do you a damn bit of good the day your country decides to outlaw it.
Thanks to FDR, we know that this is an unfortunate possibility.
I’ve discussed storing gold overseas before, and will continue to revisit this topic… but today I thought I’d shed some light on the tactics of actually moving the stuff out of the country and safely to your overseas storage facility.
First of all, I move it myself. That’s right. I put it in my carry-on and take it with me on the plane. It stays on my person at all times.
Some people may find this unnecessarily risky, but quite frankly I trust myself much more than TSA baggage screeners… thus I never opt for packing it in the checked luggage. Personal security is not an issue for me either, but then again I can be pretty deadly when pistol-whipping a would-be assailant with a 10-ounce bar.
So here’s the rule, as of today August 11, 2009:
The TSA, Treasury Department, Homeland Security, US Customs, and probably the Forestry Service too, all require you to DECLARE i.e. confess taking over $10,000 in monetary instruments into or out of the United States.
So what is a ‘monetary instrument’ ?
- US coins and currency (cash)
- Foreign coins and currency (funny looking cash)
- Negotiable instruments (contract for the payment of money, like a check, money order, or commercial paper)
- Incomplete instruments (negotiable instruments that have been signed but the payee’s name is missing)
- Securities in bearer form (stock certificates)
These categories are clearly spelled out on FinCen Form 105, the Treasury Department’s disclosure form that you have to fill out if you are transporting more than $10,000.
Gold and silver are not on the list. Neither is your expensive watch or collection of overpriced pharmaceuticals. So rest easy, you can walk out of the United States with as much gold as you are comfortable carrying.
When going through the security checkpoint, I always take out my metal and put it in it’s own tray, very clearly showing the watchful eye of TSA security that I am transporting gold.
Most of the time it doesn’t even register a second look. On occasion, I run into an encounter like the one above, but this usually happens more out of curiosity than anything else.
I have been through this process dozens of times and have yet to have any serious problems with Uncle Sam. In fact, on this most recent flight to Panama, I was double-screened.
After making it through security, handing my boarding pass to the agent and walking aboard the plane, passengers were ambushed by a cluster of uniformed US Customs agents standing on the jetbridge between us and the airplane door.
“Sir are you carrying any monetary instruments on your person?”
Man… whatever happened to searching people for drugs?? Well, clearly our broke Uncle would rather confiscate people’s wealth than their marijuana.
“Negative,” I tersely replied. Apparently my pseduo-military lingo was none-too-pleasing, and I was set aside for ’secondary screening.’ Once again, Customs pulled out my metal, looked it over, and put it back in the bag.
“He’s clean.” Indeed…
I should note that one of the gentlemen behind me was found with bearer share stock certificates from his Panamanian Corporation, which landed him in quite a bit of hot water.
As per the above categories, bearer share certificates are considered monetary instruments, and the man was forced to tap dance for Customs trying to explain how his company was not worth more than $10,000.
They ended up letting him go, but not before taking records of his stock certificates, passport, and other personal information. Naturally, as USCBP is designed to “keep terrorists and their weapons out of the country,” I feel a hell of a lot safer.
If you have your own stories about traveling with gold and silver, please share in this forum.
{ 30 comments… read them below or add one }
When you were stopped on the Jetway did you have more than $10000 worth of Gold?
Dear NYRN Simon Black,
When possible and you are in Miami, I would be honored to have a cigar with you and touch on the Polish question.
You are sure right about the MIA/Miami and the S.FL politics are even worse.
Love your publications.
Stay safe.
Jan Boxer, MRN
Simon,
Thanks for sharing that insight on taking gold out of the U.S.. But consideration needs to be taken on bringing it into another country. For example, Panama. I am not sure that you need to declare that you are bringing in precious metals over $10,000, but it will probably be noticed as heavy metals show up on x-rays easily) and you may put yourself in danger. Even if you declare it you open yourself up to possible robbery later.
How so? Over the past few years a number of foreign nationals who declared to customs their stash of cash over $10k only to be high jacked on the road from the airport and relieved of the funds. Obviously there are some thieves among the airport custom agents. Certainly this would happen with gold as well so I would not carry the metals into the country unless it is less than $10k value. There are several companies in the U.S. who will transport at a reasonable fee and deliver to an address you specify. Here again caution needs to be taken. I would only have them deliver to a bank where you can meet and there is security. It is unfortunate that one must take such precautions, but when you are dealing with valuables of this nature, it is a must in Central America.
I realize that this was written some time age, but you mentioned several companies in the US that will ship pm’s to Panama. Could you recommend them, as I have not been to find one.
Thanks,
John
I’m wondering what the issues would be to carry a large quantity of gold or silver on board a flight. Say 1000 oz of sliver. In Silver Eagle form that would be $1,000 face value US dollars so that isn’t an issue, but 1000 oz of silver weighs about 68.5714 lbs. This would require 50 tubes of 20ea Silver Eagles. This would be extremely difficult to carry on and even a challenge to check in a bag. Even 500 oz of gold or silver would be a problem in my view. What’s the point in carrying 10oz of silver? You won’t be moving much wealth overseas at that rate.
I understand that taking gold/silver out of the USA is not a problem.
The more important question is, ‘What is the policy of the country you are taking the gold/silver into?’
I assume that this can be answered by contacting the embassy or consulate of the country you are travelling to . . .
What about moving gold coins/bars into EU from eg. Schwitzerland or out of EU, will they charge eg. VAT or other kinds of tax?
You only mentioned a silver bar. Bullion is supposedly exempt.
If US Eagles, Philharmonics, Kangaroos etc. were carried would you lay that out also in the tray? Do you keep them in a coin roller? Would the value be the Face value or the value of the coin based on the price of gold or silver the day of your travel.
When I travel, if I have any loose coins, I just have them in one of the pockets of my carry-on bag. I have not tried this with gold or silver coins.
Should one also carry purchase receipts with them just in case?
Chuck
I think that gold coin such as the Gold Eagle, and the Maple Leaf, etc, is a monetary instrument. It seems the question would be how are they going to want to value them? It should be by the face value, which in the case of the Gold Eagle is $50. Unfortunately a person carrying gold out of the country could be facing a gun-toting thug (government agent) with an IQ that would approximate that of an oyster. It is always best to avoid a fight, so what is the answer to the valuation of gold coins being transported out of the United States?
I would agree that gold and silver in the form of a bar or round is not a monetary instrument. Silver Eagles would be, and the question again would be how would the government try to value them? Of course the weight of silver would make it less likely that a person would be crossing the $10,000 threshold with them no matter how they wanted to value them.
Has anyone had experience with taking gold coins like Eagles out of the country in an amount over 10 coins to see how they tried to value them?
Regarding “Foreign coins and currency (funny looking cash)”, can bullion coins (Krugerands, Eagles, and the like) be interpreted as “coins and currency”?
Same question as one other gentleman – how does US Customs, or other Customs, look at numismatic coins? Or is there simply a better way to move these physically out of or into the US – like hire a coin dealer or lawyer to transport them? Thanks – Robb
We recently moved from New Zealand to Canada via LAX and spent quite a while trying to determine whether or not Gold and Silver had to be declared. We interpreted it the same as you but nobody official could give us an answer and we didn’t want to trust the US govt in just letting us through if they could seize it on a technicality.
In the end we carried the Gold (over 100 oz) on us as hand luggage and declared it both in LAX and Canada. Security leaving NZ was discreet when they picked up the dense objects on their x-ray which was nice.
In LAX we had two very large individuals from Homeland Security waiting for us. They escorted myself, my wife and our 8 month old son away from the arrival gate, opened a customs desk for us, got some airport staff to collect our luggage, opened a check in counter and made sure we and our luggage were checked through – no lines!! Because we had come off a trans pacific flight, we were way, way over weight for the flight to Vancouver but because of our new friends, nobody said a word.
In Vancouver, the customs people were stumped. They got their chief supervising commander or whatever they call themselves to sort out our Gold and after about an hour he just threw up his hands and waived us through without processing the declaration.
One interesting thing we found was that because the bullion coins from the New Zealand mint are not legal tender and have no face value, the officials were completely stumped as to how they were supposed to be treated so even if they did declare Gold as a monetary instrument, they had no way to assess their value.
The Silver is being shipped so it will be interesting to see how our “Household Silver” is assessed along with the rest of our possessions.
No TSA/PM stories, but an (almost) comical story about a Swiss Army knife.
In a nutshell….John Wayne Airport, 06:00, luckily I’m an hour early for my flight. I’m standing there, shoeless, beltless, watching the bags glide thru the peeping-tom machine; the screener stops the belt, stares into the screen for a minute, looks at me, then stares into the screen again. I’m thinking @#$%, what’d I leave in there (my backpacking backpack) this time? Screenerguy calls his buddy over and they discuss it for awhile, glancing sidelong at me suspiciously. They call someone else, then someone else, then someone else, till there’s half a dozen personnel from four different LE outfits looking over each other’s shoulders at the screen like a bunch of meerkats looking at spider. They call the gorilla–an armed TSA thug–who actually points his gun at me.
“What’d they find? A b–” …I reconsidered this ill-timed attempt at humor and asked instead, “What did they find?”
“Shut up and don’t move!” he growls.
“Yessir.”
By this time there are 50 people standing around watching “the terrorist” who got busted over on lane 3, and the group of LE guys and girls is now up to eight….before the Cal National Guard guys showed up to get a couple more guns on me “the perp” (yes, they actually said “perp”). My TSA guard is sweating now and the look on his face was enough to scare anybody, as though he had caught me redhanded in the act of diddling his baby girl. Seriously, I’m pretty sure he was praying I’d bolt…so he could finally shoot someone….anyone.
They finally opened up the backpack and, with bated breath, fished out a 2-1/2″ Swiss Army knife. The screener brought it over to me. “Is this yours?”
“Yup,” I said.
“Don’t get smart!” barked the TSA guardthug with the gun visibly shaking by now, which seemed to unnerve even the screener. He told the TSA guardthug that the gun probably wasn’t necessary and the guardthug reluctantly put it away, obviously disappointed that today wasn’t going to be his lucky day.
Anyway, they found another “weapon”…one of those little credit card tools…the one with the 3/4″ long blade, and they actually made ME remove it from the pocket it was in, as though it was a live cobra or a block of plutonium. They cuffed me and sat me down while they went through every item in the backpack, unrolled the socks, unfoled the shirts, opened my business files, unrolled a set of construction plans, etc, etc, for another 20 minutes.
My gate was only a about 30 feet away and I watched as all the horrified passengers boarded my flight, whispering and giving me their own angry sidelong grimaces as they disappeared down the jetway. Last call for my fllight went over the loudspeaker.
That’s when they started taking pictures….dozens of pictures of each of the “weapons”, laid out in every imaginable configuration: by themselves, together, open, closed, this angle, that angle, with my fingerprints on the paper, without…etc, etc. ad infinitum.
Finally an OC sherriff wandered over and looked at the whole menagerie of bloodthirsty TSA goons; he looked at all the “evidence” and promptly shook his head in disbelief, walked over to me and apologized for the spectacle. He asked if I’d already missed my plane and when I pointed to the empty gate with the plane still sitting there, he looked at the TSA guardthug and said, “Get this guy’s stuff together quick!….NOW!” They jammed it all back into the backpack and told me I hadn’t heard the last of this….and that I best not “attempt to smuggle any weapons on board an airplane again!…because I was now on the terrorist watch list”….no lie.
About six months later I received an official letter from the OC sherriff’s dept, stating that while they had decided not to press charges, I best watch my P’s and Q’s, because I was now, indeed, on a watchlist, and any further screwups would result in some serious muck for me.
Needless to say, I double check my backpack pockets these days.
….and, by the way, you should’ve seen the looks on the faces of the passengers on my plane…when “that terrorist guy” cruised aboard their plane and sat down.
Priceless.
A very interesting report, Simon. But what about Austrian or Swiss customs? What happens when I take my $50K worth of Gold Eagles out of the US into another country? Do I have to declare them to Austrian customs and pay duty?
Thanks in advance for your discussion of this most important topic.
After reading these posts, plus other “absolute-idiot” stories re: TSA, one must wonder whether TSA applicants are required to have any evidence of brain function, any rudimentary education (say, fourth grade), any ability to speak and comprehend English, citizenship in any country in the more-or-less civilized world. And who raised them to be such monumental jacka$$e$? The Hitler Youth?
Even though Simon has never had a problem transporting gold/silver, I still think the best method is to sell the coins/bars outright before leaving the USA. You will pay a premium, of course. Deposit the money and wire it wherever you are going. Or, use the money to purchase a Perth Mint Certificate which will be administered from Australia. This way, you can breeze through the Constitution-free TSA zone without any worries.
Just don’t pack your (very small) beading scissors like I did recently and cause a major problem with TSA…it’s too painful if they actually have to think about something or make a common sense judgment call (i.e., middle-aged grandmother with bag of benign beading supplies plans to take over airplane with very small scissors!!!!) RIGHT!!!!
Please let me leave the US……please………
I had a strange incident last year with TSA in Miami international. I was carrying two backpacks with numerous rolls of Canadian maple leaf 1 oz. silver coins in a plastic roll holders and three 1 oz. credit suise gold bars. The screener on the machine called over someone to look at the screen who promtly zeroed in on the bags and anounced “whose bags are these?”. After claiming the bags I was taken with the person I was travelling with to a side area where the screener wanted to examine the bags. He picked up one of the bags and advised me to please follow him and that he would not open the bag without me being present. He advised me twice that “I think that I know what you have and there is not any problem I just need to verify”. We went to a table about 50 feet away from everyone. Even before fingering the rolls of silver or getting the zippers open he advised me that he already “thought he knew what I had”. He was very specific about which pockets he went for. Curious about this I remained silent. It was one of those backpacks with lots of pockets and zippers and he went for the wrong compartment to get to the very obviously overweighted weighted backpack so he asked me about the weight while he had his hands in there digging around. So I told him I was carrying my “coin collection”. This did not seem to be anything that he did not aready know. He seemed more concerned about whether they were silver or gold. He pulled out each individual roll and examined it through the semi clear plastic lid. The guy actually seemed semi informed conversing about the relatively high gold price and silver spot prices and Canadian silvercoins.
He would not tell me why exactly he was looking in my bag and just avoided my question by saying that everything was good and that he just needed to “keep everyone safe”. He had counted the rolls on the screen evidently and he seemed to get frustrated when he could not find the last three loose 1 oz. gold bars. He did not ask me directly if I was carrying gold and he did not ask me what else I had in the backpack so I did not volunteer anything. I had hidden the three ounces quite well in the bag and he never found them although I think he was looking for the three loose gold ounces. Finally he thanks me and carfully avoided my curious inquiry one last time by simply saying that there was not any problem. I was carrying $9700 of metal in each bag. One of the bags belonged to my travel companion so we were both under the limit of $10,000.
TSA does not say why they are doing anything and when you write them officially they advise in generic language that any item considered dangerous by any TSA official at any security check point is prohibited. Anyone thinking about transporting silver should be aware that apparently hammers and 100 ounce Englehard bars are not allowed in the cabin in carry-on luggage. I only advise carrying small denomination coins and not putting any metal in checked luggage. 100 ounce bars seem to be prohibited.
how much MTS for office you need
are you in Panama would like to meet with you
Went to the coin dealer today to buy 2, 10 oz. silver bars. Just in case the need to pistol-whip a would-be assailant arises.
Read the article with interest and wanted to know which banks in China sell bullion.
I am a (relatively small, but very much awake!) gold/silver/Krugerrand dealer in Cape Town, South Africa and have been thinking about a solution on this for some time as I expect capital controls to be imposed in the USA in due time. My suggestion: why not sell your gold/silver in the US and use the funds to buy gold/silver/Krugerrands in South Africa? The gold/silver will be put in a private deposit box (not a bank!) on your name. The key is yours. Insurance for expatriates is possible and same rates apply as local person. There is capital control in SA but this does not apply to expatriates. So you can take out everything or a part if and when you wish to do so. Even when the prices go to the moon. As long as you declare your intentions when the funds come in. I will play open card with local selling prices and a small commission will apply. Idea?
Troy Ounce, You idea sounds good, could you please send to me contact infromation.
John
Forget whipping people with bars …get yourself a good stout belt with a very heavy buckle. And carry a steel ink pen. Also train a bit to use them effectively in a relaxed manner.
Just traveled to Ecuador with slightly over $10K in my purse in St. Gauden’s and several various European sovreigns. I didn’t take it out of my purse and it went through the security check (coming and going) without one word. But, we are considering going back with much more and will find out the rules to enter Equador with more than we took this time. Our realtor said he knew of someone who had his bullion confiscated because he could not prove his ownership with receipts. On a side note, it was nice to be treated like a human going through Ecuador’s security–no removal of shoes, belts, opening of laptop case etc. Also, while in Ecuador, the freedom and opportunity seemed palpable. Can’t wait to get back.
“US coins and currency (cash)
Foreign coins and currency (funny looking cash)”
Legally, Eagles, Maples, Phils, Aust Kanagaroos etc fit this definition, which is why they are called legal tender. However, if they are caught under this, then they have to be valued at their legal tender value, ie face value. They cannot be valued at market value, I mean they don’t value your $100 note at the market value of the paper/cotton it is made from! I would not think that you need any proof of purchase either for coins. Again, if they say hey you need to declare these because they are coins, then do they ask you to provide proof of purchase for the base metal circulating coins in your pocket?
Whatever their market value is, metal or numismatic, it should not matter for declaration purposes. If the Government wanted to make it market value, they shouldn’t have made them legal tender and put a face value on the coin.
Bars and other non legal tender coins/medallions don’t fit the definition of coins in my view. That doesn’t stop some underpaid and undereducated security person from being suspicious – bottom line is if you are doing something not normal (and carrying gold/silver is not normal) then they are going to want to check it out.
FYI, Perth Mint Certificates would not be declarable, as they are non-negotiable, non-bearer documents. They are basically just warehouse receipts. We structured them this way specifically for this reason.
I agree with Annie and Troy Ounce. It may cost a bit with selling and buying, but if the dollar amounts are small, your bank wire overseas to a bullion dealer is going to get lost with all the other bank transfers going on.
The other option is to get your custodian/dealer to pick up your metal. If they arrange the transport it is less likely to be noticed as customs would be “used to” seeing bullion shipments to/from your custodian/dealer. If you arrange the shipment, it is more likely to raise a red flag.
Sometimes I will transport 30-40 ounces of gold coin within the US and only on my person in a carry on bag. Tubes of coins sometimes look like a weapon to the person on the x-ray machine and he/she will ask what it is. Rather than say that it is gold, silver or precious metals at that point I simply say to the inspector that I request a private screening. Two TSA officials will then escort me into a private area where we will not be observed and go thru my bag. When they pull the coins out most know what they are and it goes no further. If they have not been on the job that long I simply tell them that they are gold coins that I am taking them to whatever destination I am headed for to sell. End of story no muss or fuss. I have never even had one of them open the tubes as I tell them it will affect the value of the coins. Declaring in public you are carrying 40 ounces of gold could have deleterious effect on your life expectancy.
Hai, Interesting to read everything.I have one quick qestion please help.
I am a collector and need to leave US for some travel.I am planning to take some 20 numismatic gold coins with me.should i declare to customs while leaving US? Should i put them in carry on ? all are professionally certified coins.
thanks in advance.
I have heard it is possible to get gold “warehouse receipts/certificates” where the gold is purchased in another country and deposited in a private foreign depository. (similar to the Perth Mint certificates). I am particularly interested in Canada.
Can you point me in the right direction?
Simon Black, thank you for your blog, helped me a lot to clear things up.
But, this one question. If I take for example 2 gold bars, tha tis 2 kg of 22k gold bars, into the US, from South America, I can walk, no problem at all into the U.S.? even being a tourist?
Thanks,
Please help,
Jonjon